I've lost mr. infla and his miliarden in another italian forum, but i'm happy to find him here...
Nice to see you again!
I'm trying to identify the different color shades of some polish issue, and one in particular is the issue for the northern poland of 1919. The Fischer catalog lists the different shades, but it's always puzzling, when you have a stamp in front of you, to reconduct it to a specific shade. I think it could be useful to have a sample picture to compare.
I don't know how much of you collect Poland, nevertheless i begin this topic hoping someone could help me validating and filling gaps.
Let's begin with a stamp with a lot of shades listed. Fi 92, 1 mk. The Fischer lists 6 shades:
a) j.fiol. hell violet pale violet
b) c.fiol. dunkel violet dark violet
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4111/0092b.th.jpg]
c) niebfiol. blau violet blue violet
d) szarlil. grau lila grey lila
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5742/0092d.th.jpg]
f) czarfiol. schwarz violet black violet
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9660/0092f.th.jpg]
The catalog which i use in my collection is the Fischer, the polish catalog
All the stamps have no special value, that's true, nevertheless, let's see something...
The three stamps with the SO overprint belong to the plebiscite issues held in Spis and Orawa.
After WWI, in some border regions, plebiscites were held to determinate the annexion of that region to a country or to another (that's in few words). In that regions, particular stamps were issued. Spis and Orawa are two towns in the Czech-Polish border (don't ask me now where they are...), and instead of a special issue, existing polish stamps where overprinted with "S.O. 1920".
The 25.000 mk is stamp overprinted because of the inflation period.
The 1.000.000 mk and 2.000.000 mk are also stamps of the same inflation period. These stamps are quite rare and valued as used (but warranted used). New or hinged are quite common instead. Used stamps with a fake cancel are also common (me too i have the same cancelled in the 1950... late use...).
The other stamps are all of the early period of the newbord Poland. You can see the currency is still the "marek", which was one of the two in use in Poland (Marek in the northern poland, Korona in the southern Poland). In 1924, after the currency reform, the Zloty was introduced instead.
In the second block, there are just postage due and official stamps (exept the last 25gr brown).
The first are postage due stamps (Doplata = postage due). They are mixed, belonging to several issues.
The red ones are all official stamps (i.e. used to deliver official mail). The first official stamps were made in red with big digits inside, while the following issues were more simplified, being composed by two stamps, one for ordinary (Zwyczaina) and one for registered (Polecona) mail.
After few years of stamps collecting, i've also collected several foreign letters. Here's the one from Germany.
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/268/germania1.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1659/germania2oc5.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7374/germania3aq1.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5769/germania4as6.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4606/germania5ed7.th.jpg]
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9356/germania6qi3.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/2056/germania7tq8.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/305/germania8wn8.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/7753/germania9qk5.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3166/germania10bz7.th.jpg]
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/5210/germania11lc2.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4743/germania12sn4.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6217/germania13zm4.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8449/germania14hq9.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/9778/germania15of0.th.jpg]
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/9359/germania16qt1.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6808/germania17.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4199/germania18tb7.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/338/germania19og6.th.jpg] [Blockierte Grafik: http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/783/germania20xk3.th.jpg]
Could someone be interested in exchanging them (all or just some) with polish stamps? I'm specially interested in stamps of the "Eagle on baroque shield" issue of 1920, used-mint, singles-multiples
Can i also add a question, which perhaps could be answered simply looking inside the forum if i could read the german language? Can someone describe a little the actual german ordinary issue? Is it suitable for a specialized collection (i.e. are there known varieties)? What about postal rates in Germany in the last years (there has been changes after the introduction of the euro)?
Times ago Alessandro Arseni, publisher of the magazine "The postal gazette", makes me read a serious analisys about stamp collecting and stamps collectors. To be honest, not just to me. The results of this analisys were posted into a public forum, even if now i can't find it. It was in italian, but if you're from Lugano, you will certainly have no problem.
I don't know how helpful could it be, but you can try asking to him directly. To contact him you can simply visit the postal gazette website.
I don't know the czech, but for similarity with polish
Osmdesatehopateho vyroci narozenin (85th year of born)
presidenta republika (of the president of the republic)
Tomase g. Masakyka
I think you're right...
(Osiemdziesiaty piaty rok narodzienia in polish)
English is the second language spoken in the world, or at least that's what i've read, but from the philatelic point of view, at least for my collection area, the most interesting information can be found in german... pity i can't read...
This kind of postmarks was in use in postal stations... (?) What's a postal station? it's not a railway station, it's simply an office located on a postal trakt, i.e. on ways throught which the post was delivered, am i correct? But so, isn't any post office a postal station?...
Thank's Lacplesis and Nigel for your help.
I would like to show you a simple postcard, from Dzialoszyn (Kingdom of Poland, Kalish goubernia) to Berlin. The postcard has been posted the 24 september 187?, and delivered to Berlin the 8 october... At least, that's what i think. The rectangular postmark has not been filled with the year, and the year isn't either in the delivery postmark. There are no handwritten adnotation, so i think it has been shipped after the UPU. The rate for a postcard was then 4k for the inland like for international postcards, and so there's a bit overfranking of 1k more.
Can someone tell me more about the delivery postmark, which is unusual for me (i'm more used to se the "AUSG. etc." ones). In particular, is it really a delivery postmark or something else? From-up to when was it in use?
I posted also the back of the postcard (this time without any "side"), perhaps the year could be written there...
As i've seen the same forgery passing on eBay at pretty high prices, i would like to repropose a small tread which i've previosly posted on another forum. I hope someone could find it interesting. Any comment is always welcome.
Polish corp's and Poczta osiedli polskich's issues, as far as i know, have not been subjects to particular forgeries. The only ones which have been forged are just this sheetlets. The reprints were born as sheetlets of bigger size than the original (18 cm vs. 12 cm about), not gummed and not perforated. And they still can be found in this conditions, even on eBay, sometime reproposed as "proof". But just for these characteristics they can be easily identified. Afterwards, the sheetlets have been cut in the right sizes, perforated and gummed to be more similar to the originals.
Honestly, I don't really know if they were born for a fraudolent reason. It wouldn't be clear the reason of such big differences from the original (size/gum/perforation). In my opinion, but I just express my personal opinion, they have been spread in place of the originals just later on, when the interest and the catalog value of the polish corp issues began increasing...
Gum and perforation, anyway, are not so perfect. The sheetlets which was in my hands had a partially blind perforation, while the gum was quite omogeneous and in good conditions. But I also have a set of stamps coming from the same kind of sheetlets where the gum application instead is very poor... That's why these items are sometime sold as hinged, not because they're really hinged, but for the damaged/poor gum.
But without going in a deep exam, it's enough to look at the print: colors are faded respect to the originals, and the drawing less defined and blurred.
Here the three sheetlets:
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/1616/cp3eb4.th.jpg]
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/9827/cp4tl5.th.jpg]
[Blockierte Grafik: http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/7280/cp5fe4.th.jpg]
The three stamps extracted from the sheetlets, originals (i have the certificate, but when you'll see the forgeries, you'll understand there's no need to show it)
The three fakes
Hope it could help.
I was wondering why such a letter could be sent from a small town like starawies... Than i've found this:
On the front, the word "Narivve" i think it's in reality "Varsovie", Warszawa in french. Varsovie and Berlin behind are the routing information. The word on the left, covered by the ink but not voluntery deleted, i think it could be "per" or "via", or something like...
At the moment i can't add more... Thank you for your help Nigel...
Here me back
I've added a more enhanced and higher resolution picture
I think the right title is Chevalier de la croise Militaire de Pologne. If you look the P of Paris in the bottom-right part of the letter, you'll see that the shape of P matches with the P of Pologne.
On the bottom part, we can also read some routing information (Varsovie and Berlin) and the final address, Paris Rue du Roule (?), chez le Pepinieriste (gardener?) du Rois
On the reverse, i can read
Papiery w tym Pakuice (?) zapieczentowane (papers sealed in this package)
1. Akcja na 900 frankow z Dotacya ... (Akcja i think it's a kind of check, check of 900 francs in dotation ...)
2. Plenipotencja na Barona D'Autencourt (delegation to the Baron D'Autencort)
3. Certificat Zycia (Life certificate)
4. Liot (?)
It's written in old polish, or perhaps not by a pole...
This should answer to the question about the value declaration. The 4° point could it be not a point but the weight (i.e. 4 loths?) I can't find this word in my dictionaries.
A word more about the PAYS BAS PAR GIVET. This is a transit postmark applied when the letter entered in France. Before 1800 circa, letter entering France were just marked with general postmarks, like "D'ALLEMAGNE", etc. without an express indication of the location where they came from. More detailed postmarks were introduced in the end of 1700 mostly for administratives purposes, for instance to know who to claim fees for unpaid letters, etc. Normally, letters entering from Prussia were marked with "PRUSSE PAR GIVET/FORBACH" rectangular postmark. Even letter coming from Russia got the same postmark. That's why of my thought.
I realized just now i was mentioning what we call sometimes the "B" side...
The most peculiar aspect i think are the wax seals. Seals were used instead of postmarks somewhere in the kingdom of Poland, but mostly at the beginning of 1800... I don't remember exactly up to when, but if i don't mistake we can say around 1815... Is this a late use? The shape is similar to others i have in my books, but the side inscriptions are different and perhaps make explicit reference to the handling of value letters, as WART. could stay for "Wartosc", value in polish...
I was wondering also if the "PAYS BAS" instead of "PRUSSE" transit postmark could be applied for error of for some special reason. Mail from Russia/Poland passing throught Prusse directed to France should refer to the 1817 postal convention between Prusse and France, and should be considered and marked as coming from Prussia. In effect i have the sister of this letter, not charged but in the same period with the same route, and this has the "PRUSSE PAR GIVET" postmark, like many others belonging to the same convention. But i don't think that's a big issue, just curiosity.
It's a declared value letter, sent from Warszawa to
Monsieur le Baron D'Autencourt
Mareshal de camp de l'armee francaise affiches
de la legion d'honeur, Chevalier de la croise
Militaire de Pologne...
It bears the Warszawa 30 october and the Strzalkowo 1 november linear postmarks plus the other additional postmarks CHARGE for the declared value, TP/PP for the pre paid letter and the transit postmark entering in France. Why PAYS BAS (PAR GIVET) instead of PRUSSE?
But the most interesting part of this letter is on the back...
The letter arrived the 13 november 1820 (pittoresque arrival postmark). The sender of this letter applied just the central seal, while for charged letters it was required that all the opened sides was closed (usually with 5 seals). So, the post office clerk added the missing four and on the side seals you can see the shape of the STARAWIES postmark.
Polish wax seals are not so common, and Starawies in particular is not listed in the books i have, even if the shape matches with the ones of the other post offices. Must be rare...
Could i just understand something more...
The lac is not so readable...
In the middle you can see the shape of the Real Krone
Below, the STARAWIES word, and the post horn symbol.
Along the side, the words "KON.PP.POST.WART.AMT"
Sorry if i answer in english. I can't be sure of course, but seems to me reasonable they've been used to cancel the stamps in place of postmarks.
Why the postmarks have not been used it's another matter. They could be stamps not cancelled in the shipment office and cancelled by pen i.e. before the delivery (even by the postman).
But i've received no more than two-three weeks ago a letter with the same kind of cancellation, so it's something which can happen...
Remind me when i asked myself the same question.
Considering letters sent abroad, i've a little bit overtaken the distinction between prephilatelic, stampless and stamp-franked letters considering them all pre-UPU letters.
There are distinctive characteristics about pre UPU letters which go over the simply presence of stamps or not. In particular, three of them:
- Postal rates. This is the black best. Postal rates are difficult to interpretate. Missing a universal regulamentation, generally accepted by all countries involved, postal rates are based on treaties stipulated by a country with each others. These involve the postal system by the sender and the recipient country and the transiting countries.
- Transit postmark. Transit postmarks are much more fashinating and pittoresque then the modern one.
- Routes. Letter sent by postal coaches, by train, in which other way? following which route? avoiding which country?
My letters can't compare the ones shown. I've just this one from Stettin to Norway, 1868...
After the occupation of Poland by Nazi forces, the polish state ended its existance.
The government went in exile to Great Britain, but the remaining polish forces spread themselves across all Europe.
The Polish government in exile in Great Britain issued several stamp issues, but mostly to collect founds. In particular, the catalogs list 4 issues as "Polish government in exile".
You can find this stamps usually mint, but also used on souvenir letters, with its own particular cancel, like the last one that you showed. You can also find stamps on letter regularly travelled, let's say "non philatelic", (but it's hard to say what non philatelic mean on issues born just for philatelic purposes).
After the invasion of Russia by the Nazi and the break of the alliance between Stalin-Hitler, remaining polish forces and those who was in russian prisons join themselves in Russia forming the II polish corp under the command of gen. Wladislaw Anders. This corp was affiliated to the english troops. From Russia, the II polish corp moved then first in Irak then in the holy land, then it moved to Italy, where it fight with allied army against the Nazi forces.
From the postal point of view, the II polish corp had its own post offices, but it made use of the english field post offices. So you can find postmark of polish post field office (field post in polish is "POCZTA POLOWA", which must not be confused with "POCZTA POLSKA", even if they're similar) on english stamps. You can find this kind of postmark from several location, in principle all the one touched by the polish corp in its travel. All these letters has absolutely not the "philatelic" background which on the other hand is the key words of other issues (Exile government, etc.), and are absolutely valid for a postal history collection, accepted for exhibitions, etc. and in my opinion are not so common like it could seems.
- The first letter has been sent by a polish filed post office (POCZTA POLOWA) using english stamps, as it used the english field post system.
- The second is just a souvenir letter with a polish government in exile issue.
- The first depend mostly by the buyer, but it's not so common. The cost mostly depend by the polish field post office. There are entire books on the argument, the most complete of which has been published by Richard Wagner (i don't remember now the title, but i can came back). PS! Richard Wagner is not the composer, the right name is Ryszard, or something like (polish equivalent)...
- The second is listed in catalog almost 10-20 euro...
I think so.
The postmark says "According to the indication"
If the charged letter (i call in this way insured letters/with declared value, i don't know which is the best one) would have been given to the post-office clerk closed, he of course could not see what was inside and he should rely on the declaration of the sender (which in this case is written on the front of the letter), so he applied this postmark to state this situation. If on the other end the values would have been placed inside the letter in front of the post officier, this mark would have not been applied.
The second part of your post, perhaps not at 100% to be honest. But i told you i would have come back with other questions...
Google translator sometime give quite nice and understandable translation, but sometime not, so i agree with you...
Many thanks and Merry Christmass
PS! Charged letters, which is my preferred way to call this kind of letters, come from the french "Chargé". I translated it directly. You may say, why do i underline it? It's matter of terms. Like i.e. Prephilately. Could this letter be called prephilatelic? It has been sent if 187?, i don't know exactly. But in this time, stamps were already been introduced. Why this letter doesn't bear any? I don't know so much of austrian postal history, but in other countries stamps could not be used for letters sent abroad (at least at the beginning). During this period, how should we call them? Forgive this digression... Still thank you for your answer
Dankeschön und Frohe Weihnachten
Ich werde mit anderen Fragen zurückkommen
Wie ist es das Deutsch vom Übersetzer von Google?
A simple charged letter sent from Lemberg/Lwow to Geneve
On the reverse side, just the five wax seals typicals of charged letters, but no arrival postmarks. Does anyone know what's the small postmark on the front side? LAUTANGAR (?)
Eine einfache belastet Brief aus Lemberg / Lwow nach Genf
Auf der Rückseite, nur die fünf Seehunde Wachs typisch für geladene Briefe, aber keine Ankunft Stempel. Wer weiß, was die kleinen Poststempel auf der Vorderseite? LAUTANGAR (?)
Sorry if i answer in english
As Doktorstamp said, The 4th stamp in the 1st row has a polish postmark. Together with numeral cancels, the same kind of cancels made by four concentric circles was also used in railways and train station post offices, with inscription inside instead of numbers (i.e. BW, DP, DW, etc.).
Also the second stamp of the 1st row seems to me coming from Warszawa (doesn´t it look like a ...shawa? even if i´m not 100% sure).
The third stamp on the first row seems having the reversed year.